[harmacy666]

Cont.

Q: But the group is basically different from the Kerouac/Ginsberg/Burroughs
type crowd?

A; I just keep open house. That's about all I do. It changes as people show
up. Basically, we have about 600 acres up there and a few houses and people
who are here more or less permanently now-They spend part of the time in this
town [Culpepper] and part of the time in DC and part of the time up in the
mountains, and another part traveling all over the world.

Q: But it's still basically the same drift in, drift out kind of thing.

A: Nobody signs anything.

Q: It's an interesting philosophical difference with the culture at large.

A, Personally, I'd say the only thing that has been different is --I'm closest
to being Taoist.

Q: I noticed you have a Lao Tzu quote framed on the wall there.

A; Two ministers were going to come over here and pray for me. I thought you
two might have been them.

Q: [laughter]

A, They said they had a problem with me being a skeptic and me being in this
town.

Q: There's a church next door. That's got to be difficult.

A: How so?

0: I was thinking in terms of having a bohemian crowd around. Also, that's a
real thing to infiltrate in terms of the intelligence agencies.

A; Some investigators back in the 60s tailed me for four years. At first they
said they thought I was a dope dealer big time because, I didn't use it
myself. Then they decided that I was a front for the CIA. They asked I was a
front for the CIA. Of course I wouldn't have told them anyway, but I asked
those people, they said they ran the name through the computer and they said,
"No, we don't own that guy." So then the investigator says, "I've been working
on you for four years and I can't figure out what you're doing. What the hell
are you doing?" So the point is that actually I'm not doing anything, just
enjoying life and working on good ideas all of the time. I considered when I
was 12 years old that my mission in life was to know everything and do
nothing.


Q: I wonder if in the 1950s you ever encountered the name Wilhelm Reich or any
of the Reichian people?

A: Oh yeah.

Q: Do you have any specific memories about that?

A: At that particular time I also kept open house mainly to the humanist
psychology movement. They would come up to the country and have all these
various gatherings and movements and some of them were Reichians. But I
wouldn't say that I'm an expert on Reich. I think I've read most of his books.
I would say that I had an interest but I don't really have any inside
connection to that personally.

Q: Reich's last years were in Jail, as you know, and he was considered
paranoid, and they burned his books and all that. He was considered paranoid
because he said he was a victim of a Rockefeller conspiracy. But Rockefeller
was the money behind the New Republic which ran an anti-Reich smear campaign
and whose editor, Michael Straight, later confessed to being a Soviet spy.

A: He was a little bit paranoid, they said ... when a plane would go over, hed
say it was one of Rockefeller's planes...

Q: Eisenhower's...

A- It might have been a mixture of both of those.

Q: What do you make then of these stories that connect the Finders up to a
pedophilia ring in the CIA?

A- The pedophiles and all that stuff..

Q: That's all smear?

A; I just kept open house to a lot of the counter-intelligence and
intelligence people over the years. I have been reported to their security
officers probably plenty of times for trying to find out what's going on in
the world. I've tried all of my life to get behind the scenes in the CIA. I
sent my wife in as a spy, to spy on the CIA for me. She was very happy about
it, happy to tell me everything she found out. She was in a key place, you
know with the records, and she could find out things for me. And my son worked
for Air America which was a proprietary of the
CIA. There are some connections, but not to me personally.

Q: But do you have any suspicions ... the Finders sounds like a real open
group that attracts a lot different elements ... disinformation stories could
be planted by certain elements to try to connect it to pedophilia...

A: The reason the CIA wouldn't hire me is that they wouldn't have the control
factor over me. That's one of the things. They may have used me at some time
without me knowing it. They have categories of unwitting agents. Maybe you two
were sent here by them. But I'm pretty open about this kind of stuff, though.
They wouldn't hire me as a contract employee because 1 wouldn't sign the
papers. Anybody that's a contract employee must sign an agreement and then
they pay you out the money. Well, I don't

need the money, but I am trying to find out all about them. Basically, the one
sentence about the CIA is that I have been studying them since before they
were burn, I was studying them back in the 30s. It was ONI

Back then [Office of Naval Intelligence], and then the Coordinator of
Information comes on, and after that it turns. into the OSS and OSS turns into
the CIAU and the CIAU_ turns into the CIA. So I've been studying that all of
my life. But I wasn't personally working for them.

Q: The renown case, of course, took place in Florida.

A! Would you like to hear about it?

Q: I'd like to hear everything you have to say about it, actually.

A; It's very simple, We had the kids and the general idea was that they would
go up to the country up there, twenty miles from here, and they would go to
school, a self-governing school. Adults would be available to them,
intelligent, well-balanced people. And they would never be alone with it kid
so that no one could accuse them of any pedophiles stuff. At least two would
have to be there. As far as I know, they did all that. Then they were just
taking them on a camping trip to Florida. There were four intellectuals with
them and they just happen to drive into a park and somebody was suspicious
because the two men were well

dressed They had four people with them on the trip and they were all well-
educated, well-balanced people. So I don't think them

was any funny stuff going on.

Q: There were just police suspicions?

A: Well, somebody called up and said, "there's two well-dressed men with some
kids in a van over there," So the police come and then they take them down and
by their standards these well-dressed men weren't answering the questions
properly- So then they called Washington and somebody in the Washington police
says, "Yeah, we know those people. They're Finders and we're just about to
find out what they're up to up here and we'll use this as an excuse to go in
there and rig them."


Q: So you were still under surveillance by them.

A: Surveillance? I have been personally, I know, for forty years because in
other countries and so forth, counter-intelligence, come out and want to know
what !'in doing ... if you go around acting mysterious and just find out
what's going on, naturally, people come to find out what it is.

Q: So then it snowballs. First there are unfounded suspicions by these people
and the police. The local police connect to here in Washington and they say,
"oh yeah, we know about the Finders" :and that plays into their paranoia.

A, Then it goes back down to here.- Like 1 said, in the 60s I was under
surveillance for four years, from '64 to '68, and they get all their files out
and everybody starts comparing them. Basically, they come up with idea that
"we don't know what with the, idea they're doing. We don't know who they're
connected with," What were those people called in Holland?

Q- The Provos?

A: Yeah. We are more or less like Provos or Situationists or something like.
Actually, we're not connected with anybody, other than trying to know what's
going on the world and improve the world a little bit.

Q: So you haven't heard anything more about that? A guy named Skip Clemons
took all this and turned it into, "this is a Satanic cult." Apparently his
daughter actually successfully prosecuted somebody for satanic ritual abuse at
a Montessori school. Have you heard of this?

A; Oh yeah. Maybe this is something big.

Q: There's also a computer trainingcenter that was actually training CIA guys
how to operate, right?

A. There's some partial truth to it. We go out and do emergency services and
get employment for a lot of people. So one of them was in there working, where
you're talking about, but we didn't have any connection other than one man
going down there. And the man didn't know it but he was so-called "hiring a
Finder". Tile company was actually doing training for the CIA- We had no
particular connection to that man other than what anybody else would call a
temp worker. But it looks like on the surface that it all ties together- A lot
of these things do happen, but we're not connected anymore than any of the
individuals in the Provo of the Situationists were. Maybe there are some
people who have been around here have been doing some intelligence work. I
don't know about it. Mainly, there's no connection and it's just like I'm
telling you- Individuals, I don't know. People show up. They may be sent here
by the CIA, the FBI, the state police or anybody.